Larry King Live

Rev. Robert Schuller, Gordon B. Hinckley and Archbishop Desmond Tutu Discuss the Importance of Religion

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LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, from the holy city of Jerusalem to the National Cathedral in Washington and so many places in between, prayers for peace on Earth and good will to all people on this Christmas Eve.

Joining us, the Reverend Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral and "Hour of Power," he is in Jerusalem; here in Salt Lake City is Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints at the Mormon Tabernacle; and South Africa's Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Nobel Peace Prize laureate at the National Cathedral in Washington.

We're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Merry Christmas.

On this Christmas Eve, we're in the beautiful city of Salt Lake, Utah, Salt Lake City, home of the Mormon Tabernacle. And that's right where we are. And on all the break spots tonight when we go to commercial, you'll be seeing scenes from the Mormon Tabernacle's world-famous choir and a concert they held last weekend that our CNN crew, through our local affiliate KSL here in Salt Lake, taped. So you'll be seeing lots of the Mormon Tabernacle tonight as well.

And on our -- in our "Millennium Month," we present outstanding guests every night, no exception tonight. We have three outstanding -- in fact, three wise men, if you'll allow me a pun, are our guests this evening.

Let's start with President Hinckley, and then go round-robin.

Give us a little history about the Mormon Tabernacle. How old is this place?

GORDON B. HINCKLEY, PRESIDENT, CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS: Well, this building came into use about 1870. It was constructed as a place here in the desert. It was constructed of pillars that were placed all the way around, and then a great bridge work of timbers.

The roof is nine feet through. This was constructed by interlocking those timbers and driving pegs through them to become hinge points. And then, when the timbers split, it was bound with rawhide, which was green, and as it dried that tightened it...

KING: How long has this...

HINCKLEY: ... and made a tremendous engineering feat out of it.

KING: How long has this choir been singing?

HINCKLEY: This choir has been singing since before the tabernacle was built.

KING: And the organ, where did that organ come from?

HINCKLEY: That organ is a wonderful instrument. It's been brought up to date a number of times. It's the very latest in organ technique.

KING: And, by the way, I must tell you the city outside this building looks beautiful tonight.

Tell us, Reverend Schuller, what the situation is like where you are. Are you in Jerusalem? Are you in Bethlehem? Where are you?

REV. ROBERT SCHULLER, "HOUR OF POWER": I'm about a mile from Bethlehem. Right behind me, you can see the lights of the city of Bethlehem. Where I'm sitting right now is probably where the shepherds were when the angels appeared and proclaimed the purpose of the whole faith, and that is to bring peace on Earth, good will to men. So I'm, for the first time, celebrating Christmas Eve under the sky on the shepherd's hills with a beautiful view of the entire city of Bethlehem. It was Bethlehem 2,000 years ago, and it is tonight.

KING: And why are you there?

SCHULLER: I'm here because I'm very interested in praying for peace and doing what I can to bring peace on Earth, good will to men. I've had a wonderful past few days, spending hours and several meetings -- three in his home -- with the leading Muslim thinker and leader in the world, the grand mufti of the great mosque in Damascus invited me to come there. And that's what brought me here to the Holy Land. And I...

KING: Yes, the idea is to...

SCHULLER: ... preached to the mosque...

KING: The idea of bringing religions together, right?

SCHULLER: Absolutely. I have seldom met with a man whom I felt an immediate kinship of spirit and an agreement of faith and philosophy quite like I have with the grand mufti of the faith.

And then I spent a great deal of time with the chief rabbi here in Israel, and he wants to meet the grand mufti, and I think maybe I can get the two together. If we do...

KING: And, Archbishop Tutu... SCHULLER: ... we will have...

KING: That'll be historic.

Archbishop Tutu, can you get us up to date on the scene at that historical National Cathedral in Washington?

ARCHBISHOP DESMOND TUTU, NOBEL LAUREATE: Well, I think the -- this beautiful cathedral church, which is the National Cathedral of the Episcopal Church in the United States is filling up for what is usually described as the midnight mass, a traditional mass to which the president and the first lady of the United States will be coming, as will so very many important people.

Everybody is important, when we will be celebrating, as it were, in the center of political power to celebrate the coming of God into a world where God is saying, I love you. You all are wonderfully precious, and I believe in you.

KING: President Hinckley, do you think, really, it's possible that Reverend Schuller's dream and what Archbishop Tutu just said can happen? Do you think that all peoples, all religions, despite your differences, can come together?

HINCKLEY: Well, I would hope so. I hope that's a possibility. I think that things are better than they've ever been. We have differences, of course we do, but there's a greater spirit of tolerance, I think a greater spirit of acceptance of other religions. We must recognize that all our men and women are sons and daughters of God. If they're sons and daughters, they're brothers and sisters. We're all of one great family, the family of God. And we must learn to get along, one with another, respect one another.

KING: Hasn't always worked out that way, though.

HINCKLEY: No, it hasn't worked out, but Christianity hasn't failed. It's the greatest success story in the world. When all is said and done, it's succeeded in doing so very, very many things. And the fact that we still have problems that we've not overcome in human relationships does not mean that it has not succeeded.

KING: Let me get a break.

When we come back, we'll talk more about coming together and lots of other things to talk about on this rather historic Christmas Eve as we approach the new millennium.

And as we leave you, as we will on all our breaks, here are scenes of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in a concert last weekend in this tabernacle in this city.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back at the Mormon Tabernacle on this Christmas Eve. By the way, tomorrow night, continuing our "Millennium Month," Stephen Hawking, the famed physicist at Cambridge University in England will be our special guest.

Reverend Schuller, there has been so much in this past millennium, intolerance in your faith, so much killing in the name of your -- of God. What gives you hope that that could change?

SCHULLER: Well, I think that we're in a totally new era in human relationships. With the advent of television, globally, with the advent of the Internet, anybody can listen to any viewpoint they want. In other words, the era for centuries has been religious people indoctrinate their followers. And in order to indoctrinate, you have to protect them from hearing contrary viewpoints. Warfares for centuries were fought, and it was the fortress wall, and that was the way to protect yourself. And indoctrination has been the fortress walls of ideologies and theologies. Then came the cannon. It lopped over the fortress walls, and from that point on, warfare would never be fought the old way.

And the walls are down. People are hearing everybody else's opinions. And so I think the age of being able to indoctrinate people is finished, and we're in age of communicating with each other, and that is an amazing, miraculous new discovery.

KING: Well said.

SCHULLER: I think as long as we...

KING: Bishop Tutu, would you agree with that, Bishop Tutu?

TUTU: That's a very good assessment. You know, just a week or so ago, there was a meeting of what is called the World Parliament of Religions held in Cape Town, when you had all kinds of faiths represented in Cape Town at this meeting, and I want to say that we, in fighting against apartheid, found that we had, on the one side, a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, all of us agreeing that injustice and oppression were wrong, and that there is a greater measure of understanding that our faiths are not the same, and yet they are different ways of moving and discovering the transcendent, that God is a great deal larger than all of our faiths.

KING: President Hinckley, your faith began as a tormented faith.

HINCKLEY: Exactly.

KING: In fact, the Christians...

HINCKLEY: We've endured very much of -- persecution.

KING: And since you've seen that and myriads of other types in this millennium, what gives you hope? What would you add to what...

HINCKLEY: Well, I'd look at the progress we've made. We were in the early years, the subject of terrible persecution. We've come from that to respect all across this land, across other parts of the world. We've become a respected people.

KING: Do you agree television and the Internet has now opened it all up?

HINCKLEY: I think television, radio, all of these things have been factors in change. This broadcast from this great tabernacle has been going on for 69 years across this nation and across much of the world, singing tremendous anthems, a great and marvelous choir. It has done very much, more than anyone I think can really tell, to ameliorate feelings and bring a better understanding of what's going on.

KING: Do you think we're seeing -- in this new millennium, you're going to see an end of war?

HINCKLEY: I don't know that we'll see an end of war, but we'll see more peace, hopefully.

KING: Does Bethlehem, Robert Schuller, give you encouragement toward that? Do you have that emotional feeling there tonight?

SCHULLER: Oh, absolutely. I mean, when the chief rabbi of Israel wants to meet with the top Christian and Muslim leaders in the world, this is marvelous. When the grand mufti would invite me from America, a Christian, to come and preach the sermon in his mosque on Holy Day at prayer, Friday, December 17, and he invited to sit and listen to my 40-minute sermon, that he would sit and often hold my hand while I was talking, and here was the Roman Catholic patriarch, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church and the patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Protestant minister of the town -- this is a remarkable thing that's happening.

And I don't want to talk too long, but the grand mufti said something that really impressed me. He said, religion is like the rain that falls, to refresh, to keep life beautiful, growing. But religion, like rain, falls. And then the extremists come, and they pollute the pure water until the water itself is almost unsafe for people to drink.

And I'm very excited. We're in an era today when we're determined to clean up the pollution of the air, and we're determined to clean up the pollution of the water, and we're determined to clean up the pollution of the oceans. and I predict we're going to focus in the next millennium as religious leaders to clean up the pollution in religion.

KING: Let me get a break and come back with more on this Christmas Eve again, more from the historic Mormon Tabernacle choir.

Don't go away.

(SINGING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's Christmas morning in Bethlehem. You're seeing a live scene now of the birthplace of the Prince of Peace. It has been -- the weather has been inclement, but as you can tell, it's a rather peaceful morning. That's the scene behind -- Reverend Schuller will begin this round of questioning, and anyone can jump in at any time with Archbishop Tutu.

There's a new book out called "No Future Without Forgiveness," and by the way, Gordon Hinckley has a book coming in March called "Stand for Something." I'll ask him what that means.

But for you, Desmond Tutu, how can you forgive? With all that's happened to you, things put upon you, what leads you to say that there is no future without forgiveness? What do you mean?

TUTU: It's absolutely clear. You see it when a couple quarrel, unless they get to the bottom of what made them quarrel, they've had it. And it's always true with countries, with nations. We're seeing it in Rwanda. We're seeing it in Kosovo, that the Serbs did awful things to the Kosovars. And you thought that, I mean, when things became normal, they might begin to think of reconciliation.

Instead, the Albanians are now paying back in the same coin, and so you have a spiral. And I believe -- and this is a wonderful injection of our faith -- that because we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, we are those who have been forgiven, and are asked in our turn to forgive.

I haven't -- I haven't suffered as much as many people in my own country, but look at Nelson Mandela spending 37 years in jail. He comes out -- where people were expecting him to be filled with hatred and a bitter desire for revenge, he becomes an icon of magnanimity and reconciliation. And South Africa seems to be a kind of example, unlikely example...

KING: Yes.

TUTU: ... but I believe myself that we have been given the opportunity of making a new beginning.

KING: Have you, Gordon Hinckley, forgiven those who, in the past tormented your faith?

HINCKLEY: Yes, I think we have.

KING: Where do you get that from?

HINCKLEY: Well, it comes of the gospel. You put your faith in the Lord. You cast your burdens upon him.

KING: And it makes it easy to forgive?

HINCKLEY: Makes it easier.

KING: You could understand the Pope going to the prison to visit the man who shot him...

HINCKLEY: Yes, yes. KING: ... and kissing him on the cheek?

HINCKLEY: Yes, and you're not likely to forgive unless you have that godly feeling that accompanies it.

KING: And what does it do for you when you forgive?

HINCKLEY: Oh, it has a cleansing effect, a marvelous effect, to get over carrying that heavy burden that you have been troubled with.

KING: Isn't it difficult, Reverend Schuller, though -- I'm looking at this emotionally -- isn't it hard to forgive someone who has bugged you?

SCHULLER: Well, of course it's hard to forgive. You know, Jesus said what would be -- what do you -- to his disciples he said, which would be the hardest thing for me to do, to heal this man of his disease or to say your sins are forgiven? He said the hardest thing is to forgive, because of our compulsion, legitimately, for real justice, could restrain us from extending mercy.

The greatest contradiction in life is the contradiction between justice and mercy, and I think that what's -- first of all, I want to applaud the title of the book because I don't think there's anything needed more today as we come into a new millennium, and a new century, than for nations and persons to close the door on the past, and walk away from it, and be able to be free from the oppression of history where we say everybody owes me a lot -- a lot of pardon, et cetera. We have to close the door on the second millennium, close the door, and start over again.

KING: Let me take a break, and when we come back ask Gordon Hinckley what he means by "stand for something." This is LARRY KING LIVE on Christmas eve. You're listening to the Mormon, and watching the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and that's where we're coming from. And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Merry Christmas from all of us at CNN and Time Warner.

President Gordon B. Hinckley what do you mean by the term -- we said stand for something, the title of the book is "Standing for Something." It's going to be released in March by Random House and Time's books.

What do you mean?

HINCKLEY: This book becomes a plea to people to stand up, declare their return of values, to be honest, to be upright, to be men and women of integrity, to be men and women who have faith, who pray who return to the virtues that made America great...

KING: Why should...

HINCKLEY: ... to tie the family together which has been falling apart.

KING: Why should we have to stand up and say that?

HINCKLEY: Because we need to make some declaration that will mean something to others. When we make a declaration, we make a self- commitment. And that commitment becomes binding upon ourselves.

KING: So it's important to not just live it?

HINCKLEY: Not important -- important not to just live it, but to say something about it to others. Let it become contagious. Let virtue move across the country, the nation, the world. Most other problems will take care of themselves if that happens.

KING: You agree with that, Reverend Schuller?

SCHULLER: Oh, absolutely. I want to thank very much President Hinckley for pointing out that the Christianity has been the greatest success possible. After 2,000 years, right behind me only a few feet simple shepherds stood and they heard something, a message, they said, from angels. They didn't expect it. And they were -- they dropped everything. They made haste. They went to Bethlehem. You are looking over my shoulder at the very birthplace where Jesus was born. They came, they found him, they left and praised God, and they launched a movement.

And 2,000 years later out of that movement came the values that produced hospitals, universities, science, art, humanities, music, all of culture was -- is better today because of it. And what we need to do is return to the faith, the values of this Christ who was born 2,000 years ago.

KING: Arch...

SCHULLER: And I want to comment on how we can do that when you have a chance.

KING: I sure will.

But Archbishop Tutu, do you agree that it's not just living it, you have to stand up and say how you live it?

TUTU: I think that is absolutely true. What I want to say as a preliminary point is we have got to be very careful that we don't get triumphalistic. Christianity has done some extraordinarily wonderful things, but it's also been responsible for some of the most horrendous atrocities that the world has seen, and we ought to be suitably modest and humble.

But I do believe that it is true that we need to stand up for what is good, for what is beautiful, for what is true. But also do this not in an aggressive way that makes you look like you believe you're always right and everybody else is wrong. I think that often and often we put people off by not commending the faith of Christ graciously. And we need to be doing that, making people realize that we have a precious gift, Jesus Christ, who came as one not triumphant. He ends up on a cross, somebody who offers his life on behalf of others. And it is almost always when we do that, when you are a Mother Theresa, when you are whoever, when you are doing something on behalf of others and not looking for a reward, that we are most successful.

KING: Well, let me...

TUTU: It is when we think -- when we think we are the ones who have got the truth.

KING: Yes, we -- I am the Way, and the Light, and the Truth -- and you're not. We have to all get together -- we're going to ask his thoughts, Reverend Schuller, on how we really do this. And I'm going to play a little devil's advocate and find out how we all still are -- three wise men still believe as they do when they see something like Venezuela this past week.

We'll be right back on this Christmas Eve.

Don't go away.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back this Christmas Eve.

We're at the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, and our guests are President Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. His book, "Standing For Something" will be released in March. At the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., is Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus of Cape Town, South Africa, Nobel laureate -- he won the peace prize in 1984 -- author of "No Future Without Forgiveness," which was published by Doubleday. And in Jerusalem, the famed reverend, Robert Schuller, television minister, host of "Hour of Power," that syndicated television show that is also seen, by the way, around the world, as well.

Let's start with Reverend Schuller and let's go around. Some quick, if you could tell us, some tips as to what makes you think this can come about?

SCHULLER: Well, I think because we're reaching an age where world religions are moving from regulations and restrictions into focusing more on building relationships. And that's a -- I think a phenomenal positive movement. I think that religions are going to become more humble.

What has been tragically lacking is that we have lost humility in our pursuit of truth, and we get our answers and we think our answers are all right, and some of our answers are wrong, and that's true for all of us. So we have to learn to pursue truth with humility. And I think that's happening. Another thing we have to learn is that tolerance is not enough. Tolerance is inadequate. Tolerance says, well, I'll tolerate you, even though I probably don't agree with you. And we have to rise to a higher level in relationships than tolerance for goodness sakes. We have to come to love and respect these persons as humans, our brothers and sisters, even though we have differences of faith.

And then we have to...

KING: Hold it. Let me pick up on that in a minute. hold it.

President Hinckley, we see -- how can you continue to believe -- you see Venezuela, thousands dead.

HINCKLEY: Yes.

KING: Floods -- you believe in a higher power.

HINCKLEY: I do.

KING: That could have been prevented.

HINCKLEY: Yes. But the fact is that God allows man his agency.

KING: But man didn't cause the flood.

HINCKLEY: If you view -- if you review -- if you interview -- I mean, if you view immortal life in terms of this life only, you have a very short view of it. We're all a part of an eternal process.

There is suffering in Venezuela. It's terrible. I've been in such places when there has been such suffering. We have from our church, right tonight, people in Venezuela who are working in the mud and the damp and the cold and the bitterness of that whole situation to bring help and comfort.

The tragic thing is that it happened, yes. But even more tragic is when people do nothing about it. The test of religion is doing something with the knowledge that you have of the son of God, the savior and redeemer of the world, who prompts you by his life and action to do something that brings relief and comfort and sustenance to people.

KING: But when it happens, you don't say -- you don't question your faith?

HINCKLEY: No. We go to work repair the damage that's done. We can do nothing about what happened. But we can do a very great deal about what has happened in terms of the people who are dispossessed and in such terrible difficulty.

KING: More from the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City as we continue on this Christmas Eve and our millennium month. Don't go away.

(MUSIC) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Some people have been calling asking where the choir is. That choir that you're seeing was recorded. We taped that last weekend, when they did a concert here at the tabernacle. They are, on this Christmas Eve, home with their families, where we hope you are, as well, watching this special Christmas Eve edition in our "Millennium Month" of LARRY KING LIVE.

Archbishop Tutu, one of the great current problems is youth, troubled youth, violence. We see it all over America, and it's happening in other parts of the world. What do we make of it? What can we do about it?

TUTU: First of all, I think we ought not to exaggerate the seriousness of the problem. I am myself very distressed at how quickly we write young people off, especially in this country. We don't speak about the many, many young people who go as Peace Corps in very many different parts of the world, working voluntarily. We don't praise them for the good things. We speak about the few, but we've also got to see that perhaps society has a lot to answer for.

What are the values that we put before our kids? We've exaggerated competitiveness, we've exaggerated success. We say the worth of a person depends on how well you do, so when you don't do well we say something has happened to your value. We need to be more careful about how we want to cultivate a more compassionate, a more caring kind of community, where people matter no matter what, that their value is intrinsic.

It is not something that depends on whether you succeed, whether you pass exams, whether you get on the first team. No, your value resides with you. You have been given this as a gift by God, and we ought to revere people and get our kids -- tell them they are tremendous that they're made for greatness. And many of them, in fact, reach out to the stars. And tell them the sky is the limit, but you matter as who you are.

KING: We're going to take a break and ask that same question of Reverend Schuller and President Hinckley. What about what this is all about anyway: tomorrow, the future, the kids?

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The voices of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the picture is of Bethlehem.

By the way, Bishop Tutu will be leaving us after this segment.

You will be conducting the mass at the top of the hour at the National Cathedral. Is that correct, Archbishop?

TUTU: I am doing that. And I want to wish all of you a very, very blessed Christmas, the last Christmas of this century, of this millennium, and all of the very best for the new millennium.

KING: And you...

HINCKLEY: We extend the same wish to you, Bishop.

TUTU: Thank you very much.

HINCKLEY: Yes.

KING: We wish you nothing but the best of health.

TUTU: Thank you.

KING: We thank Bishop Tutu. He's got to conduct a mass at the top of the hour.

OK -- Thank you very much, Bishop. We'll have a substitute little guest in the final portion.

Reverend Schuller, the kids of today. What are your thoughts? The Columbines and all the rest?

SCHULLER: Well, I think first of all the kids are suffering from the cultural sickness and sin in our society, which, among all other things, is secularism and materialism. And materialism does not satisfy, obviously, and secularism leaves them totally emotionally and spiritually empty and hollow.

But why do we have this secularism? I think we have to look at ourselves as religious leaders and say that part of the problem is a lot of seculars have been driven away from God because the religious people fought with each other, quarreled with each other, tried to convert each other. And I think that the future of the faith in the next century, in the millennium, we've got to say I'm going to respect you, even though I hold different viewpoints. I'm not going...

KING: Yes, but why...

SCHULLER: I'm not going to try to...

KING: But how does that affect the kids?

SCHULLER: I'm not going to try to -- the kids? Because a lot of their parents of these kids are parents who've turned religion off. And they've turned it off because they're tired of religion. They see the faults of religion. We have to move from religion to spiritual relationships.

KING: Well said.

Do you agree with that, President Hinckley, or not?

HINCKLEY: Oh, of course there's that element, of course there is. But I see hundreds of thousands of young people who live in this age and keep the faith of Jesus Christ and live decent, constructive lives, go to school. If you want to reform the world, you begin by reforming yourself. And I see that going on all across this word.

We have many, many in very, very serious trouble, but let us not forget that we have many who have found the way and are living the teachings with which they are guiding their lives and are making of themselves productive and valued citizens of society.

KING: But you are concerned about those who would shoot up the school?

HINCKLEY: I certainly am.

KING: Do you think, as Reverend Schuller says, it's in the parents, it's in the loss of values?

HINCKLEY: I think it's in the home. Everything, I believe, starts in the hope. When parents advocate their religious values, their children pick up none of those values, then we're sliding downhill. But it's my witness that there are very, very many who are doing a good job really, Larry. We're not failing.

KING: They have to be religious values, in your opinion?

HINCKLEY: Well, religious values and moral values are very close together.

KING: Do you think it's all in the home, Reverend Schuller?

SCHULLER: Well, I think that's the number one spot where we have our basic problem. But I -- even as I say that, I think we have to look at ourselves as religious leaders.

Now I happen to focus on the secular world. That's been my ministry for 45 years. I'm not interested in talking to people who have religion. I'm trying to talk to people who turn God off, and they've turned the church off, and they've turned the faith off, and they've become pure secularists, materialists. And I'm asking this question, how can we religious leaders begin to say I'm interested in oppressing nonreligious people, not trying to convert other religious people to my viewpoint?

KING: That's your mission. That's not yours, though, is it, President Hinckley?

HINCKLEY: I'm -- yes, of course it is. We're all interested in the same group when all is said and done, and that is to make bad men good and good men better. That's our mission, that's our responsibility, to reach out to those who need help, while at the same time, giving encouragement and help and a pattern of life for those who are doing what is right.

KING: Do you have to live your moral code for me to believe it?

HINCKLEY: You have to live you moral code. As I said before, it all starts with the individual. Religion means nothing unless it becomes a reflection in the life of an individual. Starts with me and with you. And if you want to change the world, you begin by changing yourself.

KING: The future is in us, and we'll talk about the -- hold on. We'll pick up with Reverend Schuller in our remaining moments on this Christmas Eve edition of LARRY KING LIVE, with maybe a little surprise when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back.

This is my little son, Chance.

Don't put the pen in your mouth, OK?

Reverend Schuller can't see him.

Let me quote -- before we have a comment from Reverend Schuller and from President Hinckley, Reverend Schuller, Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is kingdom of Heaven."

Now this Christmas Eve, my little nine-month-old Chance is here. What do you say for his future, Reverend Schuller?

SCHULLER: I think it's going to be beautiful because he's got a mother and a father that are going to communicate to him values of positive faith. You are not going to communicate to him negative thoughts about religion. You're going to give him positive thoughts, and you're going to teach him to think, and be open and look for faith. And I think he's got a great future.

KING: God bless you, Reverend Schuller, and thanks for being with us in Bethlehem on this historic Christmas Eve.

SCHULLER: Larry, I don't know if I'm still on, but I want to thank you for this program.

KING: You're on.

SCHULLER: Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

KING: And I want to thank...

SCHULLER: Thank you Reverend Schuller and thank you President Gordon B. Hinckley for the courtesy of this wonderful city and your wonderful faith, and this incredible building.

HINCKLEY: We're happy to have you this historic Christmas Eve, the last of the century, the last of the millennium, to have you here in this sanctified and wonderful hall with this great music of the Tabernacle Choir and these wonderful Christmas decorations, all of which are here in tribute to our master, the Lord Jesus Christ, whose birth we commemorate at this time.

As for Chance, yes, you're going to have a good life, my dear friend. You've got a great father and a great mother, and they love you, and they're going to rear you in the way that will make you happy and productive. Merry, merry Christmas.

KING: Thank you, everyone.

HINCKLEY: Merry Christmas to everyone tonight.

KING: Thank you. And don't forget, Monday night -- Monday morning, get your issue of Time magazine. They're going to name "Time" magazine's person of the century.

Stay tuned for CNN NEWSSTAND.

And Merry Christmas from everyone at CNN to everyone at your house.

Thanks to KSL. Thanks to everyone in Salt lake.

Good night for Chance and the whole group.

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Last modified: March 19, 2006